sonos, google lawsuit
On Tuesday, Sonos sued Google in two federal court systems, seeking financial damages and a ban on the sale of Google's speakers, smartphones and laptops in the United States. In response, Google had to change how some of its speakers worked, including reducing some functionality. The engineers are in a room whiteboarding, and if theres something that really feels novel enough and interesting enough to go think about an actual patent, then the engineers and lawyers start working on it together. Are you going to support lossless audio on Apple Music? Were not thinking about it in terms of Republican or Democrat. That was it. Patrick Spence and Eddie Lazarus from Sonos. Its easier in hindsight to understand that a company has been working on all of these great things. PS: How do I make decisions? Read Sonos, Inc. v. Google LLC, No. Again, at the biggest level, thats just not the spirit of competition and America at the end of the day. Thats important. I feel very bullish about the future as I think about the whole size of the audio market and where we are today. Weve been solving problems and innovating generation after generation of this company. NP: All right, Patrick and Eddie, thank you so much for being on Decoder. I do think its existential as a country that we do that. The decision means that Google's smart speakers and other smart home tech. NP: I feel like I can hear some of my listeners already. Today, it makes a wide range of hardware products, including smartphones, computers and connected home devices. Weve had China in the mix and Malaysia now as well. The lawsuit is part of a cross-jurisdictional battle between the two companies which spans Canada, the U.S., France, the Netherlands, and Germany. So far, thats been the learning as well okay, people will listen to both. Thats a lot of room to run to take more and more of that $89 billion. The resulting US International Trade Commission decision forced Google to apply ITC-approved software downgrades to remove infringing features from speakers, which . For one of the largest companies in the history of the world to do that is wrong. The lawsuit, which was filed Tuesday in Los Angeles, says Google gained knowledge of Sonos technology when the two companies worked together to bring Google's streaming music service to Sonos . You want them both on your speakers. It was a combination of expert judgment that led me to the strong conviction that our patents were going to survive an unbelievable onslaught by Google. A big part of culture is making sure we have the right team and the teams set up in the right way to be successful. We were upfront with all of our partners and let them know what we were doing ahead of time so they understood where we felt it fit. We get sued by trolls not infrequently, but solving that by undermining the value of innovation is really not the way to go about it. 8. But then I look at Apple, and they just roll it out for free at the same price. Youre in that situation. They can choose another service. I guess it depends what the decision is, ultimately, in terms of where we are. Sonos has claimed that it shared details of its technology with Google starting in 2013 when the two companies began working together. Youre saying, This is our tool. Were going to devote some percentage of the companys mindset and perception out in the world to this?. Sonos filed a patent infringement lawsuit against Google at the beginning of last year. YouTube Music continues to go along. OAKLAND, Calif. Google infringed on five audio technology patents held by the speaker manufacturer Sonos and is not allowed to import products that violate Sonoss intellectual property into the United States, a trade court ruled on Thursday. NP: Lets get into it. The patent battle between Sonos and Google just went in the speaker maker's favor, with a final ruling finding that Google imported and sold products that infringed . "With its update," the lawsuit states, "Sonos acted by force to limit consumer choice instead of competing lawfully, based upon the quality and servicing of its devices." The plaintiff says that after both of his CR100 controllers failed, the devices displayed a message directing him to www.sonos.com/cr100, which states, in part: The global audio market is $89 billion a year in sales. Sonos recently won that lawsuit at the US International Trade Commission, which ruled that Google infringed all five patents Sonos brought to court. Brandon Toh. The case concerns technology around the latter's smart speaker products. NP: Every tech company that veers into programming lands in this place where you have to pay Kareem and Erykah Badu. From our perspective, my job was to assess the strength of the case, to make sure that we were rock-solid if Patrick wanted to move forward in this way. Were hiring people in software to go into new areas that were not in today. You should not be able to patent a setup flow. I realize the actual patents are much more detailed and specific about how those things work, but conceptually, you should not be able to monopolize that kind of idea in the way the patent system currently allows. Others in the industry are more constructive in their conversations with us. Sonos said Google was violating more than 100 of its patents and proposed a licensing deal to Google. For us, its just a straight policy matter and one where we think our relationship with the big tech companies is a good example of why there should be some modernization and exactly what that modernization should be. The audience cant see this, but I can see them. The court might agree. Its bad for innovation. 3. Im super proud of the team. PS: We are working on some really exciting stuff that I cant wait to tell you about, Nilay. Thats a problem, but thats not a problem that should be solved by punishing companies that are truly innovative have solved problems that no one else had solved before and who are facing a competitor who is actually taking those inventions. We know that this is a big, exciting space and more and more people may want to copy those. Google markets its speakers every day on things that Sonos actually invented and that they took from us. How much time do you spend tending to those partnerships? We have this flywheel that goes and goes through it. We bring out products which our existing customers buy more of. Sonos said it was pleased with the preliminary ruling, which it said "confirmed Google's blatant infringement" of Sonos patents . That is something Im still trying to figure out with some of the Web3 technologies. The teams done an incredible job. Our strategy was, have a conversation with your manager about where you can be most effective going forward. Well have roughly 60% working from home, post-pandemic. Sonos is making these claims in hopes that Google will just pay them royalties without doing their homework to find they shouldn't. Sonos is a patent troll and has been for a long time now. It is not right if somebodys just going to copy what you make and try to underprice you and try to drive companies out of the space. Its been a real advantage for us. All Rights Reserved, By submitting your email, you agree to our. Sonos counterclaimed that Google's patent is invalid due to obviousness and lack of inventiveness. Here we go. On 6 January 2022, as reported by The New York Times, the US International Trade Commission (ITC . 6-20-CV-00881-ADA, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext's comprehensive legal database . The impact of the ruling on Googles business appears limited, because the import ban is likely to have little impact on newer products that use different technologies. The patent portfolio as a revenue stream is the other part. I think the other side of that coin is that, hey, if we are inventing things, people shouldnt just be able to copy those things and put those out into the world and do that. We face this all the time on the hardware front where certain players make copycat-style products. You will see stations there that are all about Sonos whether its the jazz station that Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is doing or Erykah Badu. I spend a lot of time with my leadership team, both as a group and then one-to-one in terms of working through some of those issues trying to find the best talent, trying to unleash the talent inside the organization, and making those decisions when you have to. I think we have an advantage in that. Thats why thats where I spend 99% of my time. Patrick Spence you are the CEO of Sonos. Anybody who says they know exactly what its going to look like a year or two from now is just fooling themselves. Sometimes you also need to think about which decisions need to get made when. These are all fundamentally software patents. Sonos also has two patent infringement lawsuits pending against Google in federal court. The pace of it all is so fast in this day and age just making sure that were going to continue to stay ahead of the curve. I get that part. People have the same complaints about Amazon. The Sonos vs Google Disaster Hammers Your Smart Speakers 23,693 views Jan 15, 2022 513 Dislike Share Automate Your Life 122K subscribers Sonos vs Google is getting ugly, and it's likely to. However, Google, Amazon, Apple and Facebook all entered the market in the last several years, seeing smart speakers as a conduit to introduce voice-based assistants into millions of homes around the world. After all other avenues had come to a position where it didnt feel like we were making progress. Best printer 2023: just buy this Brother laser printer everyone has, its fine, Google Glass Enterprise Edition is no more, The best Xbox controller to buy right now, SpaceX Starlink rolls out $200 per month global satellite internet package. What Google did to Eero in terms of copying their technology and underpricing them and kind of driving them out of business theres a pattern. Sonos first sued Google in early 2020. And ignoring. Weve taken the shackles off of where our offices are located and were picking up great talent to add to our already amazing team. The lawsuit alleges that Google . Spotify or Sonos maybe cant. Thats the fun stuff that occurs out of everybodys line of sight the generational process of capturing one wave of innovation after the other. Through this entire period, again, weve been continuing to innovate and introduce new products. We continue to have Google Assistant. EL: One of the most fun aspects of the business for my IP team is meeting with the engineers regularly in these brainstorming sessions. NP: Google spent $9.6 million lobbying in 2021. The system is designed so that those that invent can go and build on those inventions and go create businesses and employ lots of citizens, not for people to simply use their balance sheet to copy and try to destroy other companies. Sonos, Inc. (Nasdaq: SONO) today reported record third quarter fiscal 2021 results. On Friday, a jury said Apple should pay $300 million to Optis for patent infringement. We appreciate that the I.T.C. Google took out all the photo sharing services back when they made Google Photos free. PS: We are working on some really exciting stuff that I cant wait to tell you about. Otherwise, its just me. PS: It is, again, keeping it in perspective of what were trying to achieve overall. Sonos Startups Indonesia's Broom builds out automated asset-backed lending for used car dealers Kate Park 7:00 PM PDT March 13, 2023 The Indonesian used car market is on a course for growth. Its easy with hindsight to look at it and be cynical, but as you play it forward as well, it gets to, what kind of society do we want? Sonos (SONO) alleges that Google (GOOG) stole its technology for creating a system of. EL: I think thats just wrong. The commission also issued a cease-and-desist order against Google. NP: Oh my gosh. Its a symbiotic relationship with the engineering teams. Is that something you want to extend? We even have an OKR objective and key result, to use the jargon around how many of these inventive sessions were going to have with the product team every year. My assumption has always been that its because the labels charge higher rates for that higher quality. Its just plain wrong. If theres not change, if these lawsuits dont work and get Google to the table appropriately, are these existential issues for you? NP: Patrick, Im curious for your perspective on this. Google is smart to hold Sonos to the fire. Down to the one. Everybody knows what patents we have. We need someone whos really going to appreciate and understand the nature of our business and then apply all the appropriate legal principles a person or a team that I have a lot of faith in. Theres a free tier as well as a premium tier that costs $8 a month, adds a bunch of features, and takes out the ads. Im keeping the board up to date on our partnerships, our conversations with all of our key partners as we go through this, and kind of where we are. This was great. The second is culture. PS: I think theres probably something to that, but I also think the labels are pretty smart,like Eddie said, about trying to keep it a pretty level playing field in terms of whats there and not simply let it become a loss leader either. But just in terms of, how do you figure it out, we dont have to figure it out because some of the top executives admitted that they were selling below cost when they testified in Congress. Were thinking about a consumer thats probably going to pay for an on-demand streaming service as well. This is not just a radio music licensing question. This is our leverage to go into these conversations and get Google, or whoever, to come to the table in a more fair way. Thats the strategy. That leads how I work with the team, how I think about the industry, and who I engage with outside of Sonos. Its very pervasive. How do you think about allocating resources for Eddie to go talk to Congress to fight patent lawsuits? Google said that the preliminary ruling in August approved alternative product designs that work around the patents, and that the commission did not challenge that decision on Thursday. Last Friday, the year-long case moved forward when the US International Trade Commission found Sonos' evidence satisfactory, making a preliminary ruling in favor of the . Im curious if youre thinking about that part as important to your business. I think one of key jobs for a CEO is to determine when you actually need to make a decision on something. NP: Ive never had a CEO with their lawyer in the room. We talked a little bit about partnerships and how you need them. I think these are fundamental inventions that solved problems that nobody else had been able to solve before. Is that meaningful? Google and Sonos have been battling it out in the legal arena for a while now, with Sonos alleging that Google infringed on its patents. In late September, for example, Google filed a declaratory judgment action to try to head off Sonos' assertion of additional patents in a second infringement case against Google. Its important to recognize how unusual that is. How has this litigation affected your relationship with Google? As The New York Times notes, the products affected. Eddie obviously looks at what we need to serve the business, but then we also ask ourselves, for instance, what do we need to do to stand up in the Google situation for our intellectual property? Remember, a big part of Eddies team is on the intellectual property side actually patenting the inventions that are there and collaborating with the engineering team. Google confirmed the lawsuit to The Verge this morning,. PS: We remain open to trying to solve this in other ways. Despite all the new entrants jumping into what we knew would be a big growing market, we continue to grow and be successful in that. I do feel a responsibility for that, for sure. Google responded with its own lawsuit in San Francisco, alleging Sonos used "substantial volumes" of its technology without permission for several products, including controller apps and its . Apple, Amazon, they all spent similar amounts. From Google's own products to Google Cast-enabled speakers, most products in this ecosystem are losing functionality across the board because of a lawsuit Google lost with Sonos. There are others that you are putting at risk. Set your Nest thermostat or dim your Philips Hue lights using your voice. But thats kind of what Im looking for: actual customer problems being solved by this, as opposed to technologies that potentially hold a lot of promise. Im glad to have you both. The ruling follows a lawsuit Sonos filed in January 2020, alleging that the search giant stole its technology when the two companies partnered to make sure Google's music service worked well with . Sonos has taken its patent infringement case against Google up a notch by filing a second lawsuit on Wednesday to coincide with the web titan's launch of more Nest, Chromecast and Pixel products that Sonos claims infringe its intellectual property. It is doing so at . I guess I have the advantage of having been born and raised in Washington, DC, but the Sonos story resonates. Ive known one of the senior partners there in this area for about 30 years now. Youve taken them to court. We focus on the anti-self-preferencing. Sonos recently launched one of your newest products: a radio service. Sonos filed yet another lawsuit against Google on Tuesday, alleging the tech giant copied more of its innovations, specifically for Google's smart speakers. I think theyve gone through a long road here a journey of discovery on what it means to be the programmer. Are you still hiring in Santa Barbara and Boston or are you hiring for software jobs anywhere now? After Google lost an earlier patent case over speaker volume controls, Google is now suing Sonos over voice control technology. I have one fellow on my team who works part-time with me on the policy stuff. With two lawsuits, Google is retaliating against Sonos, claiming that the wireless speaker manufacturer is violating a number of its patents related to smart speakers and voice control technologies. After that initial ruling, the full commission met to consider whether to accept or overturn that decision. The conflict began in 2020. You have all these partners that you have to tend to that make the product work, but now youre competing with them. Weve just moved faster, quite frankly. Welcome. While Sonos is one of the most well-known and popular names in the industry, the low-cost approach taken by Amazon and Google has placed additional pressure on Sonos Sonos said that it had disclosed details about how its technology worked during negotiations to integrate Googles voice assistant and that Google had copied the tech and then released cheaper products it subsidized with revenue from search advertising. Its really led from the strategy of, What do we want to achieve in that particular area?. Both of you have testified before Congress. I think the real testament to my leadership is, long after Im gone, is Sonos growing, relevant, and still around? PS: From everything Ive seen, I think that is right. How did you make the decision to have political activism become part of that Sonos story? Youve won with them. Just think about where this goes and why the system was set up the way that it was. Initially, Google was not a competitor, but it started moving into Sonoss space, first with a small device to stream music in 2015 and then with its Google Home speaker in 2016. Eddie, I dont know if you want to add anything. Is that material to you? Tactically, Eddie, youve got to go into that patent portfolio and pick some to litigate. You and I have spoken many times since then. NP: This is kind of the opening to, How do you compete with the tech giants? I look at your pricing tiers, and its free, and then if you want lossless HD radio, higher-quality music and I mean file quality, so higher bit rate music, lossless music then you have to pay. Sonos filed a lawsuit over claims that Google stole its multiroom speaker technology during its 2013 partnership with the company in which both agreed to work together in order to bring. You said two products a year. Its really the Sonos story that does the work for us. You dont have unlimited scope as to what those patents can say. NP: Youve got a portfolio, but patents expire, so that portfolio needs to be refreshed. They will just keep the same price, because their lossless is cheaper than Amazons lossless or whoever else. We have a ton of runway for growth and were in a good position. Thats just wrong. Theres two things that I say I spend my time on. In the lawsuit, Sonos says that Google used that tech in its own products and undercut Sonos. PS: We really set out an ambition to deliver two new products a year. Do we want all of this coming down to a couple of companies that have all the power? You can go all the way back to the US Constitution. Listen to Decoder, a show hosted by The Verges Nilay Patel about big ideas and other problems. The proofs right there in the testimony. Our team will figure out how to work most effectively. All the music comes from me paying Apple or Spotify or Amazon or potentially paying you for your radio service. John Deere now employs more software engineers than tractor mechanical engineers, which is utterly surprising if you think about it. As you might imagine, this was not a decision I took very lightly. We have a really great culture. EL: I certainly hope not, because the smaller companies can never compete with the big players on money. Thats the key: a problem no one else has solved before that you solve in a unique way. People have liked the curated station. This is something that we feel like we need to do for the greater society, and also for all of our people, all of the companies trying to compete, all the new startups, and some of those that have been impacted by the bad actions of some of the players that are here. Pl.'s Sur-Reply at 6-7 . Lets not forget why were doing this at the end of the day. It seems like I can just look at the pricing of music services and say, Okay, it seems like theres cross-subsidization here. Its way harder to look at the price of a Google Home and say, I know how much that should cost and this is cheaper than it should be. When youre putting together your lawsuit against Google, how do you go about making a determination where you are confident that, this seems really unfair and potentially illegal, and were going to go make that case?. Over the last 20 years, you and I have seen that there are always lots of technologies and lots of philosophical discussions about what they might do, but when it comes down to brass tacks, what problems are we actually solving? How many people do you have? The two companies were unable to reach an agreement. And its a real problem. NP: Do you think these issues are existential for Sonos or companies like Sonos? When do you go to Eddie and say, I think we should sue Google, or Eddie, when do you come to Patrick and say, I think we should sue Google?. How big is the Sonos team? Oftentimes, people will jump to make decisions too soon. Whats your process? It recognizes the fact that inventorship deserves IP protection. Theyre still going to be trillion-dollar market cap companies whether these laws pass or not, but its going to allow the smaller players more oxygen and a fairer environment. Yes, we have lots of lawyers that we hire to litigate around the world, but our cost in telling our story on the antitrust front or to the extent we do media around the IP work and how we defend our innovations frankly, its a very small band. With each extension of its business, Google muscles onto the turf of smaller companies that did not expect to tangle with a behemoth with seemingly unlimited resources. Sonos is a classic American success story, and Google's piracy of its technology is a tragedy. Okay. Its probably even more existential for a lot of startups, quite frankly, that are trying to compete and go into new spaces because theres a very clear playbook now, where in these new areas, certain companies will jump in and theyll use their other kind of dominant monopoly area to cross-subsidize and really suck the oxygen out of the room. Its such an unusual circumstance where you have the luxury of being able to choose. The smart speaker market is booming right now with many products available from a variety of major tech names, including Amazon and Google. Now we live in a totally services-based world. I want to talk about all of that, as well as how you make decisions to engage that function as part of your companys operations as the CEO and chief legal officer, but we have to ask the Decoder questions first. PS: No, absolutely. Epic, Spotify, and Sonos come to mind. Turn on the TV with your voice using the Google Assistant on Sonos Beam. At my leadership level, we have four different product leaders in the conversation. Everybody should be for that. As cynical as I am by dint of being a lawyer, I am enough of an optimist that I really believe, in this case, narrative is going to win. So were going to hold them to account in court until theyre willing to come to the table and give us a fair royalty. If you dont have greater interoperability, the smart home and other very important new markets are going to devolve down to just a very few huge players. My assumption is that Apples just taking the hit because they can afford it. They ought to pay you royalty for it. Then they potentially infringed on some of your technology to make their speakers go. Google's allegations came in response to a lawsuit Sonos filed in January 2020. A lot of people have reevaluated where they want to work. In return, Sonos filed another lawsuit in western Texas claiming Google violated another five patents. Thats all weve ever sought: Give us fair value for this. That things obvious. It wasnt when we invented it the hard work that went into creating it, bringing it to life, and bringing that product there. For me, the real test with Web3, blockchain, all of these areas, is, whats been built that solves a customer problem in a better way?. Software patents are contentious in our industry.. Eddie, is that a preset package that the labels have? The phrase you used was, biased to action, which I have ruthlessly stolen, by the way. The situation where a competitor has come into your space and basically taken a huge percentage of your patents and infringed them, thats highly, highly, highly unusual. They actually put a price on Google Photos! 2023 Vox Media, LLC. We put out a couple every quarter. We also have Eddie Lazarus, the chief legal officer at Sonos. You start going to Congress. In fact, I think its an advantage for us. It really is the core of the system and why we can introduce new products that make the system better over time. The company has also filed a lawsuit, and Google filed a countersuit accusing Sonos of infringing on Google's patents for several products, including controller apps and its Sonos Radio service. Who knows? Then the other thing that most companies like ours are thinking about is other areas you can go. Have you changed where youre hiring? In this photos, a Sonos Roam speaker is seen. Previously you have said, Well, we cant sue them both. Are the conversations there different? Its really us, as well, sharing with our customers our perspective on the world, to some degree, and the kind of artists that we think should be celebrated. Google, I think, infringes over 100 of those today. You have companies who will just buy up patent portfolios and sue people to make a quick buck. January 7, 2022. Facebook, now renamed Meta, was sued in November by a now-defunct photo-sharing app, Phhhoto, which asserted that Facebook violated antitrust laws. How was Sonos structured when you took over? Patrick, you took over in 2017 as CEO. You used to be a person, man. Youll see were not into podcasts in terms of whats on Sonos Radio today. The final ruling by the United States International Trade Commission, a quasi-judicial body that decides trade cases and can block the import of goods that violate patents, closes a two-year investigation into the intellectual-property dispute. And Eero eventually had to sell itself to Amazon. Its my ultimate goal not to have to make any decisions because Ill have built a team that can make all of those decisions for the organization. This category accounted for 18 percent of Alphabets revenue in the third quarter, which ended in September. We think that there is an overwhelming sense that the antitrust laws need to be refurbished for the digital age and indeed brought back to some of the theorizing that gave rise to those laws in the first place a hundred and something years ago. These are all inventions. EL: Theres not one way to go about that. NP: Patrick, you mentioned Sonos has been around for a long time. It seems like Google did not want that to happen. This modification directly results from the ITC's decision, as the group found the feature violated a patent from Sonos. We had the CTO of John Deere on the show. Its probably somewhere in the middle in terms of where that is. We had tried to address this constructively. Of key jobs for a CEO is to determine when you actually need to make a quick buck got go... It is, again, keeping sonos, google lawsuit in perspective of what were trying to achieve overall when. 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